War Diaries Talk

Difficulties with place names: List them here

  • ChrisKemp by ChrisKemp scientist

    Given that soldiers passed through so many locations and the spelling of them could be a bit haphazard at best, it might be best to have a single thread here listing some of the ones people have come up with.

    If the same places (and variations on spelling) are coming up time and again it'll make it easier to sort them all out if there's an evolving list.

    So far I've seen:

    'Grognies' a couple of times and it's probably referring to 'Gognies-Chaussee'

    There was also a 'Roven' instead of 'Rouen' in one earlier today as well.

    If you've come across some, or have one you're unsure of post it up in here and we'll see if we can sort them out.

    Posted

  • simonedi by simonedi moderator

    any chance of starting a "common difficult names page somewhere?" like an alphabetic listing, or list of common nicknames, i know the likes of wipers (ypres) and so on but not sure everyone will.

    Posted

  • El_Lion by El_Lion

    I always put wrong spelling of names in the comments for the page. Just click on the comments icon before you start tagging, you might get valuable information. At least, I did from some comments of others.
    I followed the path of the unit movement on Google Maps in a separate tab. It's a bit more time consuming than just type what is written but I want to make sure I have the places right.

    Posted

  • BobHovercraft by BobHovercraft

    I've seen 'BLEU' mentioned in a RAMC journal, which with consultation with someone else might be shorthand for Bailleul? Anyone else back that up?

    Posted

  • spof by spof moderator

    The problem with interpreting place names is that some of the places may no longer exist, they have changed name (and not just the French to Flemish changes in Belgium) or people may interpret them differently so there could be 3 or 4 different names for the same place. Type in the name as it is written and add the "real" name as a comment.

    Posted

  • BobHovercraft by BobHovercraft

    I have also found reference to 'DES TROIS COURS' (three hearts?) in the Ypres area? RAMC journal again.

    Posted

  • eatyourgreens by eatyourgreens moderator, admin

    It would be really useful to link the old names in the diaries with modern places, where possible, so that we can place where the units were on a map.

    If you can select the modern place name from the dropdown list underneath 'None of these/not sure' (eg. Ieper for Ypres) then the tag saves the name you typed in from the diary, the modern name from the list, and the latitude/longitude coordinates from the google map.

    Posted

  • Ex103 by Ex103

    Dear BobHovercraft,

    Des Trois Cours, might be referring to a area just west of Brielen, Belgium. There are 3 old world war 1 bunkers there in the park known as Park de Drie Torens (The place served as a command post from time to time during and after the war and was the site of a artillery gun later on in the war.)

    But that is assuming the author mistook Cours for Tours (The castle there was once known as Chateau des Trois Tours) an Major General had his headquarters there at the time around April 1915 onward I think? As things started to heat up around Ypres during that time. Perhaps the RAMC was receiving dispatches from there for a time?

    Posted

  • Ex103 by Ex103

    "Bleu," might be referring to Bleuvenlandt (which isn't on newer maps,) or a old roadway known now as La Main Bleue in France. However it might just be a farm in that area that was once named it. (All of these areas are NW of Bailleul, France by a few thousand yards or so (maybe between 1 - 2 km,) I would say.

    Maybe the map he was reading from cut part of Bleuvenlandt off so it just looked like Bleu?

    Posted

  • firejuggler by firejuggler

    Typo, MARBIAX doesn't exist, MARBAIX is.
    http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD00008nn

    Posted

  • Dunedin by Dunedin

    Lots of references in diaries to RAIMBERT. I believe it is now known as RIMBERT.

    Posted

  • atozvet by atozvet

    I had Ytres repeated on several pages until eventually it is the 3rd Battle of Ypres the east Yorks were involved in.

    Posted

  • angiehart by angiehart

    Is it better to put the spelling as it is in the diary - even if it means it can't be found on the map. Or, correct the spelling so that it can be located on the map?

    E.g. St Venant in the diary isn't on the map - but if I put Saint Venant in the box - it finds it on the map.

    I'm not sure which is the more important information - their spelling or the geolocation.

    Any thoughts - I've puzzled over this one for a while!

    Angie

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator

    I think with the example you gave St Venant = Saint Venant it's perfectly OK to put the correct spelling so it finds the correct geo-location. Not sure about this as a general rule though. Possibly we need technical input on this one from someone who understands the database interface better than me!

    Posted

  • IKINAWANA by IKINAWANA

    Here is one I can never find - NORBECOURT.

    UPDATE Just found a location in the same area - possibly NORTBECOURT (missing letter "T").

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    There was one diary in particular where the author's spelling of place names was atrocious. I did what I could to match them to places on the map, but sometimes I just had to go with the spelling as given. We'll be able to match them up to real places during data processing!

    Posted

  • angiehart by angiehart

    Thanks that's really helpful.

    I've seen some author's spell the same name in three different ways on one page!

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    I can believe it! I guess considering the conditions they were in, it's a wonder they could write anything at all.

    Posted

  • DavidFConnor by DavidFConnor

    I find it useful to have access to Google maps, & paper Michelin road map - to help with identifying French spelling variants /misunderstandings. The Flemish v French v UK spelling difficulties are harder to fix - could do with an online glossary

    Posted

  • angiehart by angiehart

    Yes, I usually have a Google map page open - it does help with deciphering the handwriting. It's also interesting if you plot the locations on the Google map to see how far they travel over a week, they often seem to move around in circles.

    I've come across Nieuwkerke which is also known as Neuve Eglise depending on whether they are using the Flemish or French spelling.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    I haven't yet come across a useful glossary of place names with variant spellings. Like you, I tend to refer to google maps and that helps a lot. There are still some places that I can't link to a map, however, whether because the spelling is so wayward or the place no longer exists, I'm not sure.

    We'll have to do additional work on the place tags during data processing to resolve these issues, so if you do find yourself unable to identify the place correctly, don't worry. I'd advise just going with the spelling as it appears in the diary.

    Posted

  • IKINAWANA by IKINAWANA

    Here is one for you - Bray.

    Not a spelling problem, but have had to mark this "None of these/not sure" because the list shows three locations for "Bray" and two additional variants. No other information on the diary page to help indicate which to choose. Any ideas?

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator in response to IKINAWANA's comment.

    I usually find you can work this out by looking at where they were immediately before and after the place you can't find and then looking at a Map on Google. As we can't see the pages you are tagging and we have no idea where your unit is, it's a bit tricky to help! 😛

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    I also had a strange one like that. I can't remember the place now, but there were three of them. I did as Heather suggests, which usually works fine for me, but they were all in roughly the same area of the map. I ended up marking it as 'None of these/not sure' too. We ought to be able to fill in gaps like that later.

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    Several times when I have had trouble finding a place I've gone to Google rather than Google Maps and run a search for it. In many cases, I've found something that is a clue as to where the place is or was. One frequent result is the Great War Forum at The Long Long Trail where I can access threads in a read-only mode (I'm not a member) that contain a wealth of information. Not only do they often locate the spot, they also put it in context, such as the fact that Les Brebis was a village of cottages tied to the mines near Loos.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    So obvious when you say it...and yet that had never even occurred to me! Doh!

    Thanks for the tip!

    Posted

  • IKINAWANA by IKINAWANA

    Thanks everyone. The situation I ran into is exactly as Rob described - when you the list of locations are basically in the same general area. Sometime I also do as HeatherC described, but in this particular case, I have no information on where the unit might have been before. This is why I asked the question. Great suggestions all around! Thanks!

    Posted

  • optimise by optimise

    Is there any interest in something like #vessel or #ship

    In the Place column of a War Diary page there is SS Victoria which can't be recorded as a map location but might be of interest to 'ship spotters'

    Andrew

    Posted

  • shuli by shuli

    I recently hashtagged #indianregiment and #wilde'srifles, and was told by a moderator to hashtag them as #Alliedrelations. These were special units in the british army made up of Indian nationals however, not allied nations. Shouldn't they have their own tag?

    Posted

  • eatyourgreens by eatyourgreens moderator, admin

    I think the 'Difficulties with place names' discussion is working again!

    Jim

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator in response to shuli's comment.

    Use the "other Unit" diary tag for Indian Army Units, not a hashtag.

    And yes Jim, thanks it is! Now for the blue screen problem...

    Posted

  • 01dgobbo by 01dgobbo

    No 4 Cavalry Field Ambulance, stationed at Watterdal, occasionally send a patient to a hospital at Malasise or Malassise. There is a Malassise near Epehy but this looks to be behind the German lines. A more likely destination is La Malassise, now a boarding school just South of St Omer.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist in response to 01dgobbo's comment.

    Looks like it. This page lists RAMC base hospitals: http://www.1914-1918.net/hospitals.htm

    Look for No. 7 General.

    And here's a photo from the Guardian, with a little more info: https://witness.theguardian.com/assignment/52751e38e4b01fc33230d4aa/641530

    Posted

  • 01dgobbo by 01dgobbo

    No 4 Cavalry Field Ambulance diary on 18 Apr 1916 reports the posting of two personnel to the Gas School at Merk. According to Google map Merk seems to be located in Desvres but is not recognised by the "Place" tag.

    Posted

  • 01dgobbo by 01dgobbo

    No 4 Cavalry Field Ambulance diary on 19 Apr 1916 reports the transfer of a motor ambulance and RAMC personnel to support training by 6th Dragoon Guards at Bonningues. This could be either Bonningues-les-Calais or Bonningues-les-Ardres. Both are fairly close to 4 CFA but B-les-Ardres is the closer. Really need to look at the diary of 6th Dragoon Guards to resolve this.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    If you run into this sort of issue and aren't sure, just use the 'none of these/not sure' option. As you say, we can always resolve it later through reference to other diaries.

    Posted

  • frazernasharchiveslmb by frazernasharchiveslmb

    Am currently working on a diary page where the unit have just moved from Noyelles-les-Vermelles to Noeux-les-Mines. However in the "Place" column are the initials R.E.L.Y. and I do not know what or where these refer to. Can anyone help please?

    Posted

  • marie.eklidvirginmedia.com by marie.eklidvirginmedia.com

    There is a place called Rely near Bethune. It you type in the place name Rely, and you place it on the map, it will come up. Wonder if this is the place name you want?

    Posted

  • marie.eklidvirginmedia.com by marie.eklidvirginmedia.com

    Louise, forgot to mention: If there is a place with St. in the name, for example, St. Nicolas, if you type in St. Nicolas it won't come up. If you type in Saint Nicolas, it will come up. Typing Saint instead of St brings places up.

    Posted

  • 01dgobbo by 01dgobbo

    On 19 Jul 1916 No 4 Cavalry Field Ambulance, based at Merris, sent a medical team to support a digging party at "Lochre". I think this is the Belgian village of Loker, called Locre by the French.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist in response to louisebunting's comment.

    Louise, I think if the name looks like an abbreviation, I would just not tag it. Marie's suggestion is good, but this could also be something like Royal Engineers L... Y...

    It's just difficult to be sure, so I'd leave it for now.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist in response to 01dgobbo's comment.

    Sounds eminently plausible 😄

    If Loker's location fits, then I'd go with it. Spelling errors are a common feature of the diaries, but it's often possible to work out where the author meant. Thanks for doing the detective work!

    Posted

  • KathyW by KathyW

    Apologies if this has been asked/answered before.
    The diary I am working on has just skipped a few weeks so I have no idea where they are. In the place name for this particular page it has several entries for Hussar Camp, followed by Garter Point, then West Hoek. None of these come up in the place drop down so I am unsure what to do.

    Any advice gratefully received!

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator

    The new FAQ tells you what to do about problems with tagging places. http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/boards/BWD000000g/discussions/DWD0000lts Follow the thread there and you will get to the answer which is:

    "Enter the name as written in the diary and select "None of these/not sure" for the location."

    Posted

  • KathyW by KathyW

    Thanks Heather - I'd read some other people's problems and was struck by how much research they were doing to try to find the correct place name. I just didn't want to think I wasn't doing enough 😃

    Posted

  • profdameron by profdameron

    Is Havre the same as that spelling with an accent on the e or is it Le Havre? The diary page was clearly about troops going by ship from Southampton to Havre. Havre with an accent on the e is an interior town; Le Havre is on the coast of France and would make more sense. I marked it as "not sure".
    Similar question: Is Ville the same as Ville with an accent on the e?

    Posted

  • marie.eklidvirginmedia.com by marie.eklidvirginmedia.com

    Le Harve is a port on the coast of France.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Sometimes the place names can get confusing. Using 'not sure' is definitely the right approach where things are unclear. However, in this case, with ships and so on being mentioned, then it's safe to assume that Havre is Le Havre, the port.

    As for Ville, that's a tough one. It's difficult to say for certain. One thing I do when I'm tagging is to try and keep a rough plot of where the unit is on google maps. Then, when I hit a place name I'm not sure of, I can see what there is in the local area which it could be. That's helped me out a lot, but it's not 100% reliable. Sometimes town names have changed, or the town doesn't even exist anymore. So I'd say stick with 'not sure', unless you can tell from the map that Ville with an accent is in roughly the same area as the last place the unit mentioned.

    Hope that helps.

    Posted

  • lguy by lguy

    I found one diary page with two (I believe incomplete names on it). The first was Villers and the second was written Paisay (but the suggestion was Paizay-le-Sec). But... "Villers" is the first part of many possible named towns and "Paizay" also is the first part of a number of towns?!?! Google Earth is a good reference but doesn't always help nor make it easy to identify. If I could have started the diary right from the beginning it may have helped to see where they were and where they were possibly going. Can a person go back into previous pages to see what is written? I had a problem with this page also. I went to write a comment and the page disappeared and up came a new one. This happened to me a couple of times now. Is there any way to finish what got missed on those pages? With Google it was very nice to be able to look at some of the smaller communities and just think what they may have looked like 100 years ago.

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator

    I'm afraid you can't go backwards in the diary and see previous pages. This was part of the agreement with The National Archives when this project was started. If the thing with the page moving on by itself happens again then can you please start a new thread about it on the Technical Support board?

    Posted

  • marie.eklidvirginmedia.com by marie.eklidvirginmedia.com

    In response to lguy. If you are working on the diary of the 1 Cav. Division, 3 Cavalry Field Ambulance. The Author being Major J W West. (RAMC), he has a habit of spelling place names incorrectly. I have commented on some of these names and put the correct spelling for some of the names in the comments box. Regarding your query about the name written as Paisay. In my notes for this diary against page 42, 17-18 Sept 1914 I have an entry for Tour de Paissy. The name Paissy will come up on the Goggle Map. I have another name after this, which is Paars which comes up on the Google map in the same area, both near Paris.

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    Paissy and Paars are both towns in the region where the Battle of the Aisne was fought in Sept. 1914. The nearest major town/city is Soissons. The Tour de Paissy seems to have been a landmark in or near the town of Paissy.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    On a general note, if you're unsure of the place, then just enter it as written in the diary and choose the 'unknown/not sure' option from the geolocator list.

    Posted

  • lguy by lguy in response to HeatherC's comment.

    ok will do - thank you

    Posted

  • erik.schaubroeckscarlet.be by erik.schaubroeckscarlet.be

    I don't get a dropdown list when I am tagging places. It happened earlier already, but it always solved itself. But now the google map remains blank and I don't get the dropdown list.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Ah, okay, we had another user report something similar, so I'd guess there might be some general issue affecting the google maps widget. I'll check this out again first thing tomorrow and see what can be done to fix it.

    Posted

  • 141Dial34 by 141Dial34 in response to erik.schaubroeckscarlet.be's comment.

    me too.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Here's the main thread for this google maps widget issue: http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/boards/BWD000000h/discussions/DWD000131i?page=1&comment_id=56e88a21325db06e2c000095

    Posted

  • fisfiris by fisfiris

    Is there a hashtag for place nicknames? I've got a couple that I will 'comment' on, but a nickname resource would be v interesting. I spent about 3 years trying to find where 'Dirty Bucket Corner' was, in my father's itinerary.

    Posted

  • marie.eklidvirginmedia.com by marie.eklidvirginmedia.com

    Names like “Dirty Bucket Corner” (northwest of Ypres) would likely have been given to this place by the troops. A google search, by typing in Dirty Bucket corner ww1, brought up an interesting article on link: http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/behlines.html with pictures.

    Tip for searching a long article. On the page of article, Press Control key then F key, (Find). At the top right hand side of the article it will show a long white blank square. type in the word, for example (Dirty Bucket Corner) or what word reference you need, then press Enter and the words Dirty Bucket Corner will now be highlighted in colours yellow and red in the text, enabling you to find it quickly.

    Posted

  • fisfiris by fisfiris

    Thanks! Very useful tip

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist in response to fisfiris's comment.

    We don't have a hashtag for this at the moment, but if it's something you'd find useful, there's no reason why we can't. Generally we add a new hashtag to the list if there's general interest in a topic, so if anybody would like this please let us know!

    Posted

  • erik.schaubroeckscarlet.be by erik.schaubroeckscarlet.be

    On the same page the author writes Hulluch section, right subsection of Hulloch sector and centre subsection Hullock sector. I tagged Hulluch.

    Posted

  • marie.eklidvirginmedia.com by marie.eklidvirginmedia.com

    Hulluch Sector - should come up on this google map link.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.4858878,2.782495,13z

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    There is a town north of present-day Lens called Hulluch, as you can see on Marie's map link. The Hulluch section or sector were trenches near it. Your author mentions subsections of the larger sector. Tagging them all as Hulluch is correct.

    Posted