War Diaries Talk

Aerial photo

  • Stork by Stork

    This is pg 311 in 109 Infantry Brigade, 14 Battalion Royal Irish Rifles (30 Sep 1915 - 27 Feb 1918). Lots of shell holes, looking like craters on the moon with rays extending from them.

    Are the lines coming from the top left roads or rivers?

    I'm unsure of the squiggly lines crossing the bottom L corner. That's how trenches are drawn in many of the maps I've seen in these diaries, but I'm doubtful that trenches were actually made like that- it's so much more work to dig them like that, rather than in a straight line. Also, when I magnify it, they look like they're above the ground, like a fence, not dug into the ground, like a trench. And, they look like they have a shadow, with the sun coming from the top R corner.

    What are the crosses at top + bottom center? They look like artifacts on the print.

    Posted

  • marie.eklidvirginmedia.com by marie.eklidvirginmedia.com

    Trenches were not dug in straight lines. Otherwise, if the enemy had a successive offensive, and got into your trenches, they could shoot straight along the line. Each trench was dug with alternate fire-bays and traverses. Article on the Trench Systems Link: http://spartacus-educational.com/FWWtrenchsystem.htm

    A book I was either reading or a diary I was tagging. mentioned that when our men took over some of the German trenches, they were amazed to find how deep they were dug and how comfortable they were with bunk beds etc and electric light. See link with photos of these: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=German+trenhes+with+electric+light+ww1

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  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    Those squiggly lines are indeed trenches. Like Marie says, trenches were dug in those patterns to prevent any enemy intruders from being able to shoot down the whole length of a company's trench and either wounding or killing large numbers of men.

    I agree that it does look like the trenches are above ground. Trenches generally had parapets and built up above ground level in front, but without knowing what time of day it was it's difficult to make any determination of what is shadows.

    Do you remember where the 14th Irish Rifles were in August 1917? I think this area is southeast of Saint-Julien, or Sint-Juliaan, based on the grid reference written in white at the top right: 28, meaning Map Sheet 28 and a grid reference of C.24.b. There are also two grid references written in green in the upper and lower margins. If you look closely, you'll see straight green lines drawn on the photo that cross near the right side; one of the lines extends into the right margin a bit. I'm pretty sure that where those lines cross is the intersection of the four grid squares. I compared the photo to this map: http://maps.nls.uk/view/101464903 Unfortunately, the two D squares are on the next map to the east, so I only looked at the C squares.

    Those lines coming from the top left look on the map like a rail line of some type. Maybe a light rail built by the troops.

    Thanks for posting this!

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  • Stork by Stork

    Sorry, I don't remember where they were in Aug, 1917- it's farther back than the 10 pages at the bottom of my Profile page. I think it was the Hazebrouck area, just west of the Belgium border. Thanks for the links to the photos + info.

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  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    I agree - the map seems to indicate some sort of railway. Possibly some paths/roads as well. As for the appearance of the various features, you'll notice it's not just the trenches which appear to be raised above ground level - many of the shell holes are the same. As Cynthia says, many of these features would have had parapets or raised edges and that combined with the shadow effect from the sun may be what's causing them to appear raised rather than sunken.

    It's difficult to say exactly what the crosses denote. A possible objective in the case of the lower one. The upper is of a different form, though.

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  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    I wonder if those white crosses indicate direction. I spent some time paging through aerial photos on the IWM site yesterday looking for this photo, which I didn't find before I gave up, and noticed that some of them also had those white crosses, and the upper one was always that different form. Maybe it denotes north; on this photo it's slightly angled and it matches the angle of the green pen line drawn on the photo that marks the north-south grid line on the trench map.

    I've just noticed there are also some letters written on the photo in green ink! There is a letter A under the upper cross. To the right of it I can clearly see MG and what looks like parentheses with something within them I can't make out. This must be a machine gun emplacement. Going back the other way to the left, there is a trench line with several green marks. There is another letter A at the left end and a letter B on the lower side of the trench closer to the right end.

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  • marie.eklidvirginmedia.com by marie.eklidvirginmedia.com

    Map giving situation on 9/8/1917 for the 109th Infantry Brigade, 14 Battalion Royal Irish Rifles showing front line posts.
    Link: https://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD0003gnd

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  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Cynthia, I think you have it there. It certainly lines up with the North-South grid line.

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  • cyngast by cyngast moderator in response to marie.eklidvirginmedia.com's comment.

    I think those positions marked in square C.18 could be the same ones that are marked on the photo.

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