War Diaries Talk

Indian Army Ranks

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    If you tag any of the Indian Army diaries recently added to the system, you'll come across ranks which don't appear in our standard list.

    Hopefully, we'll be able to update the list itself at some point, but in the meantime, here's a really useful reference provided by @HeatherC, which list Indian Army commissioned and non-commissioned ranks, alongside their standard British Army ranks:

    http://www.cwgc.org/foreverindia/fact-file/what-were-the-ranks-in-the-indian-army.php

    For now, simply convert the Indian Army rank to the British Army rank when tagging - one is a direct equivalent of the other, so we won't lose any information about a particular soldier's place in the hierarchy.

    Thanks all!

    To summarise:

    • Commissioned ranks for British officers are the same as those in the British Army
    • VCOs are Viceory's Commissioned Officers - Indian soldiers with officer rank, whose authority only covered Indian troops.
    • Risaldar-Major/Ressaidar-Major is a cavalry Major.
    • Subedar-Major is an infantry Major.
    • Risaldar/Ressaidar is a cavalry Captain.
    • Subedar is an infantry Captain.
    • Jemadar is a Lieutenant in either the infantry or the cavalry.
    • Company Havildar Major is a Company Sergeant Major.
    • Daffadar is a cavalry Sergeant.
    • Havildar is an infantry Sergeant.
    • Lance-Daffadar is a cavalry Corporal.
    • Naik is an infantry Corporal.
    • Acting Lance-Daffadar is a cavalry Lance-Corporal.
    • Lance-Naik is an infantry Lance-Corporal.
    • Sowar is a cavalry Trooper or Private.
    • Sepoy is an infantry Private.
    • Other corps used standard British Army ranks, such as Gunner or Sapper.

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    I've come across another rank that is not on this list. It looks like it is Rn. or maybe Ru. with a service number. In this particular case, two men of the 1/1 Gurkha Rifles have volunteered to go out alone to reconnoiter the enemy's line. I've looked online and can't find any site that is specific about ranks other than the War Graves Commission. Any ideas what this might be?

    I've tagged them as Privates, hoping that if I am wrong it will be corrected by others who follow me.

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator

    Rifleman?

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    Rifleman makes sense. Thanks, Heather. It is a Gurkha Rifles unit.

    Posted

  • tamoralady by tamoralady

    I've come across a line summarising the regiment strength - looks like:
    "Strength 6 BOS, 17 IOs, 1 S.A:S, 717 NCOs & men, 74 reservists, 41 public followers, 28 private followers." (this for 3 INDIAN (LAHORE) DIVISION: 47 Sikhs).

    I wasn't sure how to break this down into Officers/NCOs/Other ranks and would appreciate some advice.

    Posted

  • angiehart by angiehart

    Yes, I've got a similar one in the 6th JAT Light Infantry. 9 B.Gs, 17 I.G.s, 1 S.A.S, 810 R&F. 27 public and 18 Private followers. 13 Officers chargers and 12 M.G. mules.

    I assume the last two categories are animals, but I'm not sure how to break down the others.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Sorry for the delayed response!

    @tamoralady - unfortunately your 717 NCOs & men can't be disaggregated so you'll have to count them all as Other Ranks. I'd add the 74 reservists to that category too.

    @angiehart - I think your 810 Rank and File (another term for Other Ranks) probably includes NCOs, so no way you can do anything apart from input them as Other Ranks. The chargers are officer's horses and the MG mules carried machine guns - they were pack animals.

    In both cases, I wouldn't count the followers - they were civilians who carried out tasks ranging from admin to cleaning and everything in between. The private/public distinction is related to what role they carried out. Those whose skills were deemed essential were classed as 'public', while those who did more menial work were 'private'. There's no way to record them on the standard unit strength tag, but it might be worth noting their presence using a #follower hashtag.

    Unfortunately, I'm at a loss to explain the others - BOS, B.G.s, I.G.s, etc. I assume they must be officers, but can find nothing about those particular acronyms. Could you give a link to the pages these appear on, so we can try to work them out?

    Thanks

    Posted

  • angiehart by angiehart

    Thanks - that's really helpful.

    Here's the link to the page with the acronym's on. I've also tried searching for their meanings but have not found anything.

    http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD0002yhr

    Angie

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Thanks - I'm totally stumped by this. We'll have to put out a call to those with better historical knowledge to come and enlighten us!

    I'll start a thread in the Historians Arms to see if anybody knows anything.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    And we have an answer! (partially)

    I think what we have are B.O.s - British Officers and I.O.s - Indian Officers. @brownfox worked it out.

    Still haven't got a clue who S.A.S. is, unfortunately. I'll keep digging.

    Posted

  • josiepegg by josiepegg

    how about sub-assistant surgeon? Apparently given rank of Subedar - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Army_Medical_Corps

    Posted

  • brownfox by brownfox

    Good idea. According to "The Indian Army on the Western Front", 'Each Indian regiment had its own peacetime medical support, consisting of one British or Indian doctor of the IMS and under him a regimental hospital. The doctor had under him an Indian sub-assistant surgeon and a few 'menial' followers.'

    Posted

  • angiehart by angiehart

    You're right it is British Officers, Indian Officers and Sub-assistant surgeons - this was the next page I came to and they are listed in full -
    http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD0002ygp

    When filling in the Unit Strength does the sub-assistant surgeon come under officer or NCO?

    Thanks for your help with this. These Indian Army diaries are certainly interesting!
    Angie

    Posted

  • brownfox by brownfox

    I would think officer, as he's given the rank of subedar.

    I'm guessing he's performing the role of the battalion medical officer.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Thanks for that, everybody! Great to have so speedily worked this out.

    @brownfox is correct - with a rank of Subedar, the Sub-Assistant Surgeon should be counted as an officer.

    Posted

  • Tredegar by Tredegar

    I have seen IAR and believe it to be Indian Army Reserve

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Yes, that sounds right. They did call up reservists on mobilisation.

    Posted

  • angiehart by angiehart

    I've found this list of Indian regiments and it's been really helpful when trying to decipher the 'Other Ranks' when tagging the Indian diaries.

    http://www.militarian.com/threads/indian-units-listed-by-cwgc-ww1.3629/

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Thanks, angie. Very useful.

    Posted

  • SarahPowell by SarahPowell

    Any idea what '3rd Cl. S.G.S.' might be? I have a 3rd Cl. S.G.S. Krishnasami listed in an Indian Cavalry regiment diary - see http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD0002vmp (bottom of page).

    Posted

  • 141Dial34 by 141Dial34

    Hi,Does a dooly bearer have a rank? i will us the "other" tag till I know.

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator

    You need to post a link to the page when you ask this sort of thing so we can actually see it. Either start the thread direct from the "talk comments" box or find the page in your profile and copy the link from the top bar - more details here http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/boards/BWD000000g/discussions/DWD0000cx8

    SAS is sub-assistant surgeon - question already asked and answered in this thread http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/boards/BWD000000h/discussions/DWD0000jf7 (I'm going to merge yours with that thread after I post this)

    I assume this is the page you were referring do with the unreadable letters before the name? http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD0002xlu

    I agree it looks like a 6 but I actually think it's d-b and it stands for "Dooly Bearer". These men were part of the Indian Army Bearer Corps (A.B.C), about which Wikipedia says the following:

    "It was not until 1901 that the necessity for a proper corps of bearers was accepted by the Government and in this year, Dooly Bearers and Kahars were enlisted in the newly formed Army Bearer Corps, which came under the Medical Department. The Army Hospital Corps persons did the menial service in British Station Hospitals and the Army Bearer Corps provided persons for the carriage of the sick and wounded. In 1903, the Army Bearer Corps was re-organised into 10 Division Companies and the duties of these Companies in war were to carry stretchers and doolies, and in peace for general work in hospital."

    The man listed as dying on this page is on CWGC with the rank of "Bearer". I've looked further and found an Indian Army list of men awarded medals and it seems that the A.B.C. had ranks just like other units but the private soldiers were called "Bearer", so I think in the same way we have used the British Army equivalent of Pirivate for Sepoy, it would be OK here to use "Private" for Bearers and Dooly Bearers (D-B)

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist in response to sarahloving's comment.

    I think it's probably 3rd Class S.A.S. - Sub Assistant Surgeon.

    Rank...the last one we saw was a Subedar, equivalent to a Captain, but it doesn't say here. I would go with 'Other'.

    Posted

  • amartin44 by amartin44

    Hello,
    Apologies if this has been asked before; I am going through the 58th Rifles diary. The Indian officers have two name in bold which i assume are surnames but not sure. I also had a look on cwgc and there are no first names for Indian soldiers. So do we list both names as surnames?

    Example diary page is here for (Lt) Mardan Ali http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD0002zhg

    Thanks,
    Andrew

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Sorry for the delayed response. I think the safest thing would be to list both names as surnames, given that they're in bold. However, if there's somebody out there more knowledgeable than I am about these things, please feel free to jump in!

    Posted

  • 141Dial34 by 141Dial34

    I found in my diary they list the whole name ie. first name and surname.

    Posted

  • edinflo by edinflo

    I've been finding this too as I've been tagging the 39 Garhwal Rifles. Many of named I. O.s have three names and it's not always clear if this is their whole name or just surname as the B. O.s tend to just have their surname given. You can see an example of this here: http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD0002yo1 (bad handwriting I'm afraid!)

    The I. O.s also often have "Sing" or "Singh" as part of their name. I know in the Sikh tradition this can be a middle name or part of the surname. I've just been including everything in the surname but don't know if there's a better way to do it.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    It looks as if there were different conventions for names in different parts of India. For now, let's continue to record everything in capitals as a surname, regardless of whether it comes in two or even three parts.

    @141Dial34 - the issue is that we're not sure whether they're giving first name and surname, or a two-part surname. Given the capitalisations, the latter seems more likely.

    Posted

  • angiehart by angiehart

    I've had a few instances where the names are given as 'NEKI I' and 'NEKI II' and 'KANDAR I' and KANDAR II' so have been putting all of this down in the surname box.

    I think, when I started this diary - I'm tagging the 6th Jats - that I put names such as Jit Lal down as first name and last name, but I have since seen it written as one word 'Jitlal' so will put ones like these all in the surname box.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Thanks, @angiehart. I think that's the best approach.

    As with other aspects of the Indian Army diaries, there are degrees of complexity we hadn't anticipated. It's great to hear about these issues so we can develop a consistent approach.

    Posted

  • SarahPowell by SarahPowell

    Thank you, I was unable to see that 'A' as anything other than a 'G'...

    Another question - the page at http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD0002vgs (top line) has something/someone that looks like 'pakhalis' or 'pakbalis' detailed to accompany water carts and be instructed as to use of brakes. I have tried to decipher the handwriting without success. Any idea what the word is, and what it means?

    And another - page at http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD0002vjm has what looks like 'NCP No. 788 Kasam Ali' join the ambulance to be in charge of mule carts, mules and drivers - what rank is this likely to be?

    Posted

  • SarahPowell by SarahPowell

    Just found a reference to the Pakhalis as a Muslim tribe of western India (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhishti). Is it likely they are referred to by name in this diary (Secunderabad C.F.A.) because they were a significant ethnic group in Secunderabad?

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator in response to sarahloving's comment.

    It certainly sounds sensible, but then you are probably the person here with the most experience in this diary and this Unit now! 😉

    As for the rank - an abbreviation for Naik?

    Posted

  • SarahPowell by SarahPowell

    I did wonder about Naik (= Corporal or Cp possibly) - I'll put that if it comes up again. Thanks!

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Naik does sound plausible, especially because he has a service number.

    As for the Pakhalis, I think you're probably right there too. It did seem to be common practice to group people together by ethnic groups, so perhaps the Pakhalis had provided a cadre of followers tasked with general transportation duties. As Heather says, you're the expert now! 😄

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    Can you attach this thread to the Indian Army Ranks thread or sticky it on its own? I know I will want to refer back to it when working on Indian Army diaries.

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator in response to cgastwein@aol.com's comment.

    Merged the threads rather than have more stickies.

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    Thank you, Heather! It will be a big help to be able to find that information quickly.

    Posted

  • Mary_mn by Mary_mn in response to ral104's comment.

    S A S Sub Assistant Surgeon maybe. they exist in 112th Indian Field ambulance as do Senior Sub Assistant Surgeons.. No idea of exactly what they are!!

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist in response to Mary mn's comment.

    Thanks - we discovered it was definitely Sub Assistant Surgeon. As far as I can tell, these were Indian medical officers who worked under the command of a British medical officer.

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    I'm tagging the Sialkot Cavalry Field Ambulance and have come across someone identified as a Senior Assistant Surgeon, which also abbreviates as SAS. However, this man has a British name, Lt. Wood.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    I guess this would have been a different appointment to the Indian Sub Assistant Surgeons. Most likely a doctor in training (considering his rank) assisting the principal medical officer.

    Posted

  • SarahPowell by SarahPowell

    I'm occasionally coming across 'Saddler' and 'Wheeler' as ranks in the Secunderabad C.F.A. Do these count as 'Private', 'Other' or 'None'? (I am generally marking 'Ward Sweeper' 'Cook' and similar roles as 'None' in terms of rank - hope this is correct.)

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator

    Saddler and wheeler are trade appointments (like Fitter or Farrier) not ranks so the individual would also have a rank. Obviously this may not be given every time they are mentioned. I think you are right to put Other if no specific rank is mentioned and the person is referred to just by their trade appointment.

    Posted

  • f0rbe5 by f0rbe5

    I've hit another apparent rank anomaly in an Indian unit. The 15th Ludhiana Sikhs (in a diary that is marked as being the 1/4th Gurkha Rifles) report a 4682 "D. Mas" Chanman Singh being sent to hospital. Having read all the links/comments above, still not clear what a D.Mas might be... The entry is the first line on: http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD0002xck. Ah, on re-reading, it may be D. Maj, which equally could be "Drum Major." Not sure how that should be recorded - more than a drummer, but clearly not a Major...

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    I must admit, Drum Major looks like a good bet. Difficult to say what rank he would have held, though. Probably Sergeant/Havildar, but could have been higher. I think this might have to go down as 'Other', unfortunately.

    Posted

  • f0rbe5 by f0rbe5

    Another Indian rank that I don't understand has appeared. The unit (15th Ladhiana Sikhs) regularly reports Sepoys as Sy. However, I've now come across a Sy Res (http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD0002xbr - last line of 10 Nov). Is this a sepoy out of their reserves or something else? I've recorded them as a Private.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Yes, I think that's exactly what he must be - the Indian units called up reserves to fill gaps in their numbers in the same way the British regiments did.

    Posted

  • f0rbe5 by f0rbe5

    And for information, yet another Indian rank. A L/Hav (Lance Havildar, Lance Sergeant) - recorded in last line of 24 Nov in http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD0002xap.

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    More information on the Sub Assistant Surgeon designation. In the 111th Indian Field Ambulance diary, the author states that they rank as warrant officers in the Indian Army. There was some question as to whether they or British sergeants had priority for cabins on board the transport ship. The Sub-Assistant Surgeons got the cabin space.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Thanks, both.

    At least Lance Havildar's fit neatly into the hierarchy! Interesting about the Sub Assistant Surgeons (both in terms of their rank and how that particular question resolved itself) - I'm pretty sure we encountered one in an earlier diary who was a Jemadar.

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    I don't even know exactly what a Warrant Officer is or what one does. This is the first time I've seen the term in any of the diaries I've worked on so far.

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator

    Warrant Officer - the army differentiates between second and first class (WO2 and WO1) - are army ranks above Staff Sergeant. WOs hold the Queen's Warrant but not the Queen's Commission. Most have an appointment such as RSM or CSM which they are more likely to be known by.

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    Thank you, Heather! I'm learning so much from working on this project: army ranks, the geography of northern France, even how horses were exercised on board transport ships.

    Posted

  • David_Underdown by David_Underdown moderator

    I've an idea that the division into 1 and 2 only came in part way through the war (1916?) and that CSMs and CQMS were NCOs up until that point, but I might be wrong.

    Posted

  • SarahPowell by SarahPowell

    I've found another rank - Kot Dafadar - which I have found referred to elsewhere as Quarter Master Sergeant or Company Sergeant Major (same as Havildar Major I think, but for cavalry).

    Posted

  • SarahPowell by SarahPowell

    The diary of 20th Deccan Horse seems to make a distinction between Ressaidar and Risaldar - see http://talk.operationwardiary.org/#/subjects/AWD0002vrd7, where some Ressaidars are promoted to Risaldar.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Thanks, Sarah.

    Kot Dafadar appears to have been a cavalry rank equivalent to Troop Sergeant Major - Company Sergeant Major.

    Ressaidar seems to have just been a variant term for Risaldar in all sources I can find. However, you're absolutely right that the Deccan Horse were promoting Ressaidars to Risaldars! I wonder whether They treated Jemadars as equivalent to 2nd Lieutenants, Ressaidars as Lieutenants and Ressaidars as Captains.

    Posted

  • Paul_Rapley by Paul_Rapley

    Thank you all.

    However, I embarked on this aspect of the project today - and entered several diary pages erroneously or too vaguely before myself googling the 'GWGC Forever India' site. I then entered several observations about ranks onto a page commentary before discovering this thread - which was started seven months ago!

    The sophistication of the discussion here leaves me feeling very naive - but also wondering whether many other data trackers are blundering about as I have been today.

    Perhaps, if the software cannot be fixed as yet, it might help the historians who will use our categorisations if we data trackers could be advised in a more noticeable way about equivalent ranks and thereby be guided to get it right from the start.

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator

    Paul - it's not easy to find a way of advising new taggers about all the nuances of the project that have evolved over the months it has been going. The point of the tagging interface where each page is tagged by 5 people and the system then compares tags to find a "best fit" is that the odd error like this does not matter in the grand scheme of things and as you say you yourself noticed it could not be right - presumably when you wondered how so many men could have the same first name! Entering the comments on the page as you did was exactly the right thing to do as it alerts one of us to it and I'd directed you to this thread on seeing your comments, before coming here to see you'd already found it.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Yes, Heather's right: the war diaries are such rich and complex sources of data that it becomes virtually impossible to clearly signpost everything which people might need to take note of. The consensus approach to generating the data does get around that pretty neatly, however.

    I think what would be useful, though, is a clearer link into the Talk pages from the tagging interface - it's always a great place to check when you have queries.

    As for blundering about - not at all! Learning by doing is a key part of the project. We're happy to have you on board!

    Posted

  • Paul_Rapley by Paul_Rapley

    Might Q.M.D. stand for Quarter-Master Daffadar, do you think?

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    I think it very well might 😃

    It's definitely a rank that was used.

    Posted