War Diaries Talk

Can we please have a tag for.... (Suggestions for new standard diary tags)

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator

    Before you post in this thread, be aware that currently we don't have a developer working on this project and so it's unlikely that new tags will get added in the near future. However we have had one review of standard tags since the project started and we did see some significant changes then, so do feel free to suggest what you think would improve the information or ask why we don't have a specific type of tag.

    Please do remember that we are not trying to tag every single little thing and that we don't want hundreds of tags covering every specific activity!

    I'll try and keep this first post updated with what people have suggested from here on and the answer if it's relevant..

    @pageja suggested adding a Places tag to the Orders page type. My answer " We want to tag what actually happened not what the Orders said was supposed to happen. "No plan survives contact with the enemy"! If and when the Orders are carried out the Unit will note the locations they actually went to in their diary. In the meantime many of the places in the diary won't be related to them at all but will refer to other units. Hence why there is no Place tag in the Orders page."

    @ddotdrew suggested "Same names keep cropping up - a drop down list of previous recent entries would speed that up enormously."

    @pdhosmer suggested "The tags aren't well suited for Signal Regiment activity - any chance of adding some? e.g. Laying lines, comms failure? Or just 'communications' depending on the level of detail wanted"

    Posted

  • ekfw by ekfw

    After going through a number of ambulance unit diaries - I'm never sure how to categorize "establishing an advance dressing station". Would that be casualty treatment, or construction (or both?). Sometimes one part of the unit is sent forward to establish an advance dressing station, and then inevitably has to fall back under enemy fire and abandon the dressing station. Would that be a case of withdrawal and/or enemy fire? It makes me so sad to read all of it!

    Also, do I catalog the number of casualties that come through the mobile hospital, or only those that occur to the personnel in the ambulance unit.

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator

    It's not really construction. I think "casualty treatment" needs to be reserved for actual treatment not the establishment of the dressing station. I'm afraid the answer is either as "other" or not at all.

    Yes if they are pulling back under enemy fire you can use both tags you mention.

    You only count the casualties from your own unit. Those passing through have already been counted by their own unit and if you count them again they will be entered twice. This is an important point for anyone doing a medical unit.

    Hope that helps?

    Posted

  • roystown by roystown in response to HeatherC's comment.

    Definitely need a tag for "communications".

    Posted

  • MementoMori by MementoMori

    What about tagging a unit, say "B Company", when there isn't a specific name mentioned? It would be easier to track unit movements that way.
    Also, for some (like AWD0001jml) the page mentions units dropping off for stationing in different cities.

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator

    If the name isn't mentioned then you can't tag it. It is likely that "B Company" refers to a sub-unit of the unit whose diary it is and we've already talked about that before and said please do not tag the activities of sub-units when they are connected directly to the diary unit. Basically if the Unit are all in one place or all doing the same thing, you do not tag the activities of the sub-units - e.g. "Battalion was in trenches, A Coy on right, B Coy on left..." etc, does not get tags for the individual companies. If the Unit splits up for duties (as RE and RA Units do all the time) you tag each section/battery as if it were the Unit itself if they are doing totally separate things - e.g. X Battery supported 1 Gloucesters, Y Battery was in reserve with 1 SWB" or "1 section on road mending, 2 section making a new camp".

    In the case you mention, the Battalion is all billeted in the same area but Companies are in different places. This isn't a particularly significant detail but you would tag each place name and use the "Army Life - accommodation" tag on each. Which Company was in which exact billet does not get tagged.

    Posted

  • Kemp by Kemp

    How about a weather tag for WIND - fairly important where things like gas attacks might come up?

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    That's a good point. Somebody else also mentioned that heavy winds could make things difficult for signals companies trying to keep lines running.

    Posted

  • brownfox by brownfox

    Can we have a tag under Unit Activity for Instruction? To be used when our unit is instructing someone else - the converse of training.

    Posted

  • brownfox by brownfox

    And under ranks in the person tab, perhaps add:

    Regimental Corporal Major, Staff Sergeant Major, Drill sergeant, Regimental Quartermaster Corporal, Squadron Corporal Major, Squadron Sergeant Major

    These are appointments (mostly in Guards regiments) rather than ranks, but the diaries sometimes refer to them in this way and it means the tagger doesn't need to know the minutiae of senior NCO appointments.

    I'm sure there was a request somewhere to rearrange the order of these ranks too. Most of those I've tagged are junior officers so I would have thought starting the list at Second Lieutenant, then Lieutenant, Captain... Field Marshall, then the Other Ranks would mean that most of the time, the rank you need to tag would be on the first page.

    Cheers
    Steve

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    All good suggestions, Steve. As Heather said, we don't have any resource available to make any changes right now, but it's really useful to get a sense of requirements for when we do.

    Posted

  • floodmouse by floodmouse

    There is already a tag for "casualty treatment," but it doesn't apply to horses. If possible, a tag ought to be added right next to casualty treatment called "horses evacuated." This tag should pull up a box where you can enter the following information: Why they are being evacuated (e.g. sick, cast, etc), how many horses were evacuated (e.g., 10), what unit they came from, and where they were evacuated to (e.g. Neufchatel). The purpose of tagging this information would be to assist for anybody studying logistics. Then you could see at a glance how many horses were lost in a given geographical area, and why. This tag would be particularly useful in the vet diaries, where the main useful information consists of casualty statistics for horses.

    In the "weather" tag, it would be nice is there was a drop-down item for "dark." This would apply to movements at night.

    It would also be nice if there was a tag called "equipment." The tag could bring in a box that let you fill in the type of equipment (e.g. limber, anti-friction saddle, etc.). Maybe the tag would also ask why the equipment is being referenced (e.g., breakage). This type of tag could also be useful to anyone studying logistics.

    Good luck in possibly acquiring a developer if you decide changes are in order!

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Thanks for that. I agree these would be useful additions.

    I think the current set of horses hashtags we're using is doing a good job of capturing info already, but do feel free to suggest new ones or changes to the way we're using the current ones.

    #equipmentevaluation is already proving useful too, along with #weaponsdestroyed, but we don't currently have any logistics-specific hashtags.

    Posted

  • lnnseagan by lnnseagan

    What I think is you should (also) do is compile a list as a complement, of what to and not to tag, the things people asked about a lot, which might not be obvious.
    The field guide is ok, but leaves a lot of questions, and only people who read the board here are more or less up to date.
    Things like casualties sometimes summed up after a week or month probably shouldn't be tagged or when it's not clear if it's diary page or something else, and so on. You know what people asked most about and it would make things more accurate.
    Something similar ro ral104's hashtag list, which is getting more and more extensive by the day, so that it can be found in one place.
    Just a thought...

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    A good thought to. It might take me a while, as I'll have to go trawling around all the old threads, but I'll see what I can do.

    Posted

  • HeatherC by HeatherC moderator

    What we really need is a proper FAQ section that we can have "read only" so people don't post random stuff all over it. We are hoping it might be one of the things we get in the new revamped Zooniverse Talk that is supposed to be coming along soon. I do agree it's frustrating having no way of being sure what has been already asked. But not as frustrating as it is writing out for the tenth time what to do if the date is not complete! 😉

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Absolutely! A good FAQs section would help everybody. I'll see what I can pull together, but hopefully we'll have a better chance of making it usable in the next incarnation of Talk, as Heather says.

    Posted

  • Stork by Stork

    Under Rank in the Person tag, please add 'Doctor'

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Doctor isn't a rank, I'm afraid. Medical officers or orderlies carried military rank.

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    Something for Assistant Surgeon and Sub-assistant Surgeon would be great, though. I've come across them in several field ambulances both British and Indian.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    They were appointments too, as I understand it. Sub-assistant surgeons often held the rank of Subedar, for example. I'm pretty sure we have a discussion about this somewhere already. I'll try and find it later.

    The difficulty, of course, is when their rank isn't given. I often end up tracking them down on Lives of the First World War in those cases.

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    Rob, I think it was in the Indian Army Ranks thread. Seems to me they might be Warrant Officers? But I don't think any definitive answer came about. Some of them seem to be mentioned as 2nd class, 3rd class and 4th class.

    In my latest diary, the 141 Secunderabad Field Ambulance, some of the Sub-assistant Surgeons have non-Indian names; Israel and Rebbing come to mind most readily.

    I brought it up because I find it frustrating to tag a hard-working role with a rank of Other, especially if the reason also falls under Other. Then all that is tagged about the man is his name.

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Oh yes, I see. Thanks for the memory jog!

    It looks as though the majority were Indian, but I guess there may also have been British officers among their ranks, perhaps where their medical training was not yet complete. Either way, the majority we've seen so far tend to be Subedars (Captains), but I'd assume they might have ranked lower depending on whether they were 1st, 2nd class, etc.

    I absolutely understand your frustration, but the trouble with adding appointments to the ranks list is that there are so many of them beyond this example. I think what's probably required is a separate 'role/appointment' list which can be selected alongside rank.

    Posted

  • 141Dial34 by 141Dial34

    On my short-listed wish list under Person-Rank would be Interpreter & under Person, Reason would be -Inspected & Visited & reverted & struckoff. In fact if I could have only one it would be visited as I hate putting other for so many things!

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist in response to 141Dial34's comment.

    I know what you mean. I'd like to add an additional appointments list to the Person tag, which would cover things like Interpreters and surgeons and the like. There is actually an inspection option on the army life tag, which you could use, although that would be in addition to the person tag, so you'd still end up using other there!

    Posted

  • maccer by maccer

    Hi
    I'm struggling with my diary pages. I want to be able to tag things to indicate a specific enemy activity.
    For instance enemy withdraw to position.
    That also works for units. 17th battalion move to River, or 2nd Division fire on position x
    I have a patrol that has taken a prisoner who has given german positions but i have no idea how to tag that.

    Also, is there a way of zooming the google map so that I can actually find a location?
    Help much appreciated:)

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Re. the maps, you can open a larger google maps window centred on the position you've specified by clicking the google link in the bottom left of the tag. That can be a useful way of scanning a larger area.

    We don't have specific tags for enemy activity beyond 'enemy activity', as the focus is on the British and Commonwealth units who authored the diaries. However, if there are interesting snippets of info you'd like to note, I'd suggest using the comments box - all comments are saved against their originating page, so subsequent users will be able to see your comments.

    Hope that helps.

    Posted

  • dansdad by dansdad

    Can we have a gas casualty tag?

    Posted

  • ral104 by ral104 moderator, scientist

    Short answer: no 😃

    I agree with you that differentiating between casualty types would be a good thing, but we also need to generalise the tags to a certain extent to keep them from becoming too unwieldy. What we advise people to do in this sort of case is to tag the casualty number, and then also add the #gas hashtag to the comment box for the page. That way, we can gather all references to gas together and look at them in more detail later on.

    Hope that helps.

    Posted

  • dansdad by dansdad

    Cheers

    Posted

  • lmulberrysky.com by lmulberrysky.com

    This has probably been discussed previously, but I am denoting 'wounded' for gassed or shell shock - which have specifically been mentioned under casualties .... should these be specific items ?

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator in response to lmulberrysky.com's comment.

    Tagging gassed and/or shell shocked men as wounded is exactly right. Either way, they are no longer fit to be with the unit. But, to make sure that these incidents are noted, you can use the hashtag #gas or #shellshock in the comments box. That will flag these particular casualties as having been caused by those events.

    Posted

  • devonliz by devonliz

    Fatigues - are these the same as a working party?

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator in response to devonliz's comment.

    Yes, in that fatigues are groups of men assigned to some time of work. When it is a large group and/or the group is going to another location or unit to carry ammunition to the front line trench, dig or improve trenches, etc., then it can be tagged as a Working party under Unit Activities.

    When it is only a small group or the diary states the fatigues are cleaning up the camp or billets, they don't really need to be tagged as a working party, although I tag such references as Other under Army Life.

    Posted

  • IKINAWANA by IKINAWANA

    I would like to recommend adding #pigeon or maybe #carrierpigeon since they were used extensively during WW1 and seem to show up often in diary entries. I wouldn't be surprised if Cher Ami and his little carved wooden leg shows up on a diary page! Carrier pigeons were used by both sides, not only for critical dispatches, but also sent from the front line carrying status report messages to the command in the rear. Anyway - just a suggestion. Maybe a tag dealing with #communications would work instead? Thanks!

    Posted

  • cyngast by cyngast moderator

    I think that many of our volunteers are using #pigeon or #pigeons already, so by all means go ahead and use one of those two hashtags. I think that #communications is too broad, as it would end up encompassing telephone lines, wireless communications, etc. I've also see #dog on occasion as well.

    Posted

  • marie.eklidvirginmedia.com by marie.eklidvirginmedia.com

    Articles re pigeons and dogs: There was a discussion regarding dogs carrying messages 6 months ago in the Question and Answer boards/objects. Also see article and photographs on link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-25147640 I also tagged a diary and it mentioned “All ranks should be warned that dogs carrying message pouches on their collars are not to be detained except for messages read by officers”.

    Article re pigeons in ww1. http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/world-war-one/the-western-front-in-world-war-one/animals-in-world-war-one/pigeons-and-world-war-one/

    Interesting story re pigeons - Also Images and article regarding the The Dickin Medal which is the highest honor that an animal can be awarded for military service, 55 Dickin Medals awarded to animals. 32 of them were awarded to pigeons.
    Link: http://blogs.lt.vt.edu/pigeons/pigeons-in-wwi-and-wwii-2/

    Posted